ways_back_room

Yeah, figured you'd say that.

Not all people can learn magic, you know. Perhaps Todd is one of those.

*eyes Todd very carefully*

There are things that I've done with his backstory (not in the canon) that suggest to me he'd be quite receptive to certain kinds of magic. Perhaps not all, but certain kinds.

:smiles back cheerfully:

D'you get the feeling he doesn't like you, Todd?

:gryns: Call it a hunch...

*looks menacing*

'Course, Dream's Dream, and dead, so its not like Todd could do much to him. But he'd rather not have to "talk" to Todd about how much of a Bad Idea hurting Liz or Peter would be.

:gryns: But that's really not what he has in mind.

Hmm. Well, I can see Todd being interested in trying to gain power and control, and if he saw magic as a means to that end, I can see him wanting to learn it. I just don't know where he'd get the ability, or the actual source of magical power to manipulate and use.

Let me think. The HP magical structure seems to be based on internal gift (probably with some sort of genetic link); Moiraine's Power is from an external source, but the ability to use it is inborn and can't be given to someone that doesn't have it; angels, demons, Anthy/various gods/Endless/etc. are drawing on power that's part of their very nature somehow... so on and so forth.

*stopping here before I get too meta and comparative-mythy, since I'm posting on my lunch break*

Canonically Anthy could get him access to magical power of his own -- hell, 's what she's there for -- but that's a long and winding road, and probably not going to happen. ;)

The travelling assistance is more likely.

You know, the more I find out about Anthy, the more fascinated I become by her story. Or the more it warps my brain. Maybe both. :)

As I was saying to

gryffindorstag down there, it's a question of how one views magic. Just because magic doesn't "exist" in Todd's original canon doesn't mean that here, in a different environment, he couldn't make some of his natural gifts turn to magic.

Like I said, to some people - myself included - magic can be drawn from one's own Will. Todd does have the ability to draw on power that's a part of his nature. He's naturally curious and megalomaniacal and, as the title suggests, a very apt pupil. If someone sat down with him and tried to teach him magic that was compatible to his nature, I think he could learn it. On the other hand, I think there are things that he would never be able to learn in a million years - laying-on-hands healing, for example. That simply wouldn't be appropriate to his nature.

The problem is that, whatever you-the-mun believe personally about magic, magic spawned of will doesn't exist in Apt Pupil. Stephen King didn't put it there. In fact, I'm flipping through Apt Pupil and I see no examples of magic of ANY type.

Todd is manipulative.

He is curious.

He is a megalomaniac.

He is a liar.

He is a con man.

He is NOT a sorcerer.

If you want a new character that's a canonical magic-user, make one. But Todd and magic don't make any sense.

But Todd and magic don't make any sense.

Like I said, I think if someone was willing to teach him a kind that he could take to, I personally don't think it's against his canon. Differing opinions of magic, once again.

He comes from a Stephen King story, but he is not currently in one. Milliways is a purgatory. I really don't understand the amount of prejudice, and I personally think it has a lot to do with who and what Todd is, rather than the fact that he comes from a non-magic story.

:sighs: No one's teaching him anything yet anyway - so why does this even matter anymore?

I personally don't think it's against his canon.

Fine. Show me where in Apt Pupil anyone performs any kind of magic. Any kind at all.

Differing opinions of magic, once again.

No. Your opinion of magic doesn't matter. What matters is the canon in which you're operating.

My opinion is that there is no such thing as magic. Wicca and rituals do not count as magic, in my view.

However, in Peter's reality, magic exists and it has specific rules. And I'd damned well better follow the rules of magic as they operate in Peter's reality--even though he's not IN the Potterverse any longer. The rules of his reality are all that he knows.

He doesn't gain certain powers that don't fit, simply because he is at Milliways. He's not going to become a technogeek, because technology and magic do not work together well in the Potterverse. He is not going to gain another Animagus form because canonically, it's only one to a customer.

During the period that his magic had stopped working, Peter was limited to using healing potions and ointments for people who were injured or sick. He didn't suddenly develop powerful laying-on-of-hands skills from another canon. He had a problem. And he had to live with it.

There is no prejudice against you, or Todd. The problem is that you want more power for your character than your character's canon allows, and your reaction is, "Well, so what?" And, since you are in a game that specifies CANON characters, and since many of the players of this game are canon zealots, your reaction is not going over well.

I honestly don't see why you refuse to understand this.

This seems like a pretty hopeless discussion to me. Not to mention pointless, by this point, because for all of our words, do you see anything happening with Todd magically? Has he shot lightning bolts at you or turned Liz's strawberry tart into an aardvark?

I just find it interesting that, in a game that pretends it's open and flexible, there seem to be a number of unspoken "rules" that come up when someone who's new like me challenges a preconception. If I want to get answers, I'll talk to a moderator about it. Perhaps one of them could at least be more polite.

And if my opinion about magic doesn't matter - why should yours? Because you've been around Milliways longer than I have? If you want to use your "canon is all" argument, then stick to that. I have as much use for your opinion of magic as you do for mine.

My character hasn't got magic, isn't likely to acquire it, but -- I thought Peter-mun was quite polite in his refusal. We are a canon game. That's where the challenge and the fun is.

I don't agree with you. I don't the way he chose to argue was very polite, or if it was, then only on the surface. On the other hand, I wasn't expecting Peter to teach Todd magic. It wouldn't make sense.

But, to each his own.

Well, Anthy would, but not after Todd's been so mean.

*huffs*

Hey! He wasn't mean to her per se. :}

She's still got that bruise, yo. But I was more referring to the "HEY THOM! GUESS WHAT ANTHY SAID!" bit. :D

:laughs: Hey, he was just trying not to get fried. :}

So was she!

For which, by the way, I thank you OOC.

But of course! I was hoping you at least liked the slapping bit, though. Gratuitous Utena reference and all.

I was actually sad, because for once a situation in which I knew precisely what Anthy's reaction would be (usually I have to guess liek wo)! and it wasn't Anthy.

*weeps bitterly*

But yes, nice reference. You forgot to mention the "flying three side sideways" part, though. :D

Okay, I'm curious. What would her reaction've been?

Hehehe...

Well, what it is in the show. Fall over, sit there looking miserable and watery-eyed. *g*

That's what I was picturing. :D

Fortunately for her, it was Thom, who gets angry.

James has already said that Todd is a Muggle and has no magic. I believe that Moiraine, Regulus and Dream have said something similar as well.

Canonically, Todd Bowden is a sociopath from a non-magical twentieth century world. If you change him and give him abilities that are not supported by canon, you are no longer playing Todd. You are, essentially, creating an original character who bears the same name as Todd. And Milliways is for canon characters--NOT original characters. We already had that problem once with the false Destruction, whose backstory did not match that of the Gaiman character.

There is nothing in Todd's canon which would give him magical powers. He is what he is--a lying, manipulative, homicidal bastard whose inherent sociopathic tendencies have been shaped and enhanced by five years of regular contact with Dussander, a Nazi war criminal. Though Canon Todd fakes normalcy beautifully, he has fantasies involving rape, torture, shootings and concentration camps. His all-American boyhood is purely surface. What he is is a walking poster for the Hitler youth.

His relationships, what there are of them in canon, are superficial. He manipulates his parents and his teachers, and attempts to manipulate the police and an Israeli Nazi hunter. He is, by this point in canon, impotent with women in normal circumstances; he wants to hurt them, torment them, beat them, humiliate them. He is becoming rapidly more paranoid, thanks to the increasing age of Dussander and the fact that Dussander told him that a letter, detailing Todd's long knowledge of Dussander's war criminal past, will be expose Todd for what he is after Dussander's death.

He is not, under any circumstances, a nice guy. He is bloody dangerous.

As things stand, Todd fills a niche all his own--a Muggle sociopath. You know enough of his character to build plots and interactions from that, and make his apparent helplessness in the face of magic work to make him look more boyishly innocent.

A magically powered Gary Stu bearing the name of Todd Bowden is completely unnecessary.

Harsh.

It's fairly unnecessary to remind me as to the nature of Todd. I'd like to think I play him well enough to understand who he is.

Of course, I've also seen some liberties taken with canonical characters on Milliways. I don't understand why Todd learning magic is much different from

anthy_rosebride's admittedly personalized Anthy or a young Tom Riddle who is in love with a character from another universe.

By the way, I'm noticing an interesting bias against Todd from people who've actually read "Apt Pupil." Those who possess the knowledge of his problems are more likely to use it against him in play. Those who haven't read the book are more likely to accept his surface appearance, at least at first. (

muddypetticoats, for example, was fine with Todd in the beginning, but this changed.)

Although I know perfectly well that Todd's a psychopath who possesses all sorts of lustmordy-fantasies - something I don't plan on changing - I don't understand why teaching him magic is any different from Tom Riddle falling in love. Is the difference that having Todd know magic is seen as "evil," while Tom falling in love is "good"?

Interesting bias #2.

You mentioned Anthy and Tom. I don't know anything about Anthy's canon, so I couldn't say if there was anything different about her.

But let's talk about Tom.

As you may have noticed, Milliways' Tom is at a turning point in his life. He is still human. He still has emotions. But he's gone fairly far down the road toward Darkness. He now has other motives for trying not to become the Dark Lord Voldemort. But it's a struggle. He becomes enraged and lashes out without thinking. His first impulse is always the quick, easy, and most likely destructive Dark Magic. And sometimes he's given in to that impulse.

Please note: young Tom is in a situation that provides conflict and contrast for his personality. It gives him problems, goals, obstacles. And his reaction to those problems, goals and obstacles are what give other players something to act on and react toward. It creates plotlines, not just for Tom, but for the whole bar.

You, on the other hand, don't want to reinterpret Todd's personality or Todd's actions to make him a stronger or more varied character. You want to give Todd magical abilities that he canonically has no reason to have.

Now, I've seen this a lot in HP fics. I've seen Draco as a descendant of Legolas and as an angel. I've seen Hermione as a pureblooded goddess. I've seen Ginny as a slut goth vampire daughter of Voldemort.

Obviously, Angel Draco and Goddess Hermione and Vampire Ginny don't have much, if anything, in common with their canonical selves.

The authors are not looking at canonical actions and trying to figure out why thus-and-so was done; they are not looking what might happen if an incipent Dark Lord had equally strong motives to become and not to become Voldemort. No, authors who turn spoiled bullies into angels and Muggleborn bookworms into pureblood goddesses and a proud stubborn girl who hates Voldemort into an undead follower of his change the characters far more drastically.

Changing canonical characters' abilities changes the way that they react to the world, and the way that the world reacts to them. It alters the very personality of the character. A powerful mage with psychopathic tendencies could get away with being far more careless and far blunter in his dealings than Canon Todd.

Now, you said:

Also, we probably have differing opinions as to the nature of magic. You're coming from a flatly Harry Potter-based mindset, or you wouldn't use the word "Muggle." To me, though, magic originates from Will, of which Todd has in spades. His lust for power is something else that enhances it. Anakin Skywalker wasn't inherently magical either, but when presented with the Dark Side of the Force, he took to it rather well.

I have no beliefs concerning magic in real life. Since I'm playing an HP character, it shouldn't surprise you that he's using HP expressions such as "Muggle". And within the HP universe that is James' place of origin, will and lust for power mean nothing if you don't have the inherent talent.

To James, it's like wanting to be a great artist but not being able to draw. You may want to be able to draw very very badly. But wanting doesn't make it so.

Todd can have the desire to learn magic--there's nothing wrong with that. He can even try to learn, because he feels helpless.

But he can't have the ability. It isn't part of his canon.

He can pursue magic, try to learn it, do everything in his power to gain magic. However, the most he can learn is that he has limitations. There are some things he simply cannot do. Once he learns that he has limitations, he will have to determine what they are and how to get around them given he abilities he does have.

And from his limitations, and his ways of dealing with them, will come personality development and conflict and story.

Clear?

I see your point, particularly regarding the HP fanfic character variations, but I still don't agree.

It seems like you the player also think of magic in Harry Potter terms. James used it in play, but you used it here. Unlike you, I do think about the nature of magic in real life. What is commonly referred to as "black magic" is not necessarily summoning demons and rings of fire - it is a manipulation of Will, which Todd is already quite skilled at. To me, his manipulations in the book are black magic. But in the universe he comes from, making rings of fire is impossible.

Cut to Milliways. Here he has seen with his own eyes, in this meeting place, that people can practice magic. So again, I don't see why using his already strong manipulative abilities in a different manner is anti-canon.

It seems to me that you're afraid I would do things with Todd that would threaten other characters, or destroy Milliways, as if I'm setting him up to be the grand villian. I'm not. I think he would have limitations as well - like I said, he wouldn't be able to do most magic anyway. Probably about 90% of it would be lost to him. The other 10% however, is a different story.

You and I clearly have different modes of thinking. You probably still think I'm a power-hungry twink. Fine. I say it's alright to think out of the box a little, and I'm not such a sloppy RPer that I would change Todd into something unrecognizable from his origins.

I wasn't familiar with the phrase "Gary Stu" until I looked it up. You learn new things every day.

'Course, I don't think Todd could become one even if he wanted to. He might like to become one, but being a psychopath means he has limitations. Which is another reason I don't think learning magic would be a problem. Who even said he'd be able to do most of it?

Also, we probably have differing opinions as to the nature of magic. You're coming from a flatly Harry Potter-based mindset, or you wouldn't use the word "Muggle." To me, though, magic originates from Will, of which Todd has in spades. His lust for power is something else that enhances it. ~~Anakin Skywalker wasn't inherently magical either, but when presented with the Dark Side of the Force, he took to it rather well.~~ (I realize that it could be proved, in a way, that Anakin already had the ability. Then again, Lucas made it rather scientifically-based in the later Star Wars. There's certainly no mention of this in episodes 4-6.)

To me, it's perfectly in keeping with Todd-in-Milliways. You pointed out his paranoia in the above paragraph, so you might remember to what lengths this paranoia causes him to go in his canon (i.e., killing Ed French, among other things). It's a similar situation here. He's terrified of being powerless. He realizes that people have magical power over him. His solution: learn magic so he can defeat them. He's Karen Horney's aggressive type. That's what they do. To him, it's survival of the fittest.

It's not just his player wanting to fuck around and make him cooler and more powerful than everyone else. I'm not a twinkie. I've done a lot of roleplaying in my time. In this case, I'm just acting on my character's desires, which is what I thought RP was all about.

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P.S. - 3rd edit because I keep messing up. :P