ways_back_room | Thursday DE: twist the knife a little, why don't you

Ooooooo, nice. *rubs hands together* Though I don't think my pups have many obvious answers to this.

Gene - proooobably the way he betrayed his team by keeping them in his world so long. Dead coppers go to him, he's supposed to set them straight, help them find some peace and let them move on to the great pub in the sky. But he likes them goddamnit, and doesn't want to be on his own, so...yeah. Hung on a bit too long there.

Javert - hmmm. Worst betrayal. Probably the one against JUSTICE, because he worked in her name for all those years without a clue what he was really doing. He made everyone believe Justice was a vengeful, hurtful thing, only meant for a certain class of people. Boy, was he wrong.

Valjean - his family, by getting locked up and leaving them with no means of support? I don't know, Valjean's tricky. He's not the sort of man who betrays anyone, if he can help it. An argument could be made for the Bishop in the end, as crushing yourself to the point of rejecting your own self, happiness and any future life is probably taking his ideals a bit far.

Courfeyrac - betrayed his hat by losing it on the barricade. For shame, sir!

Bruce Wayne - disappeared into his mansion for seven years and left Gotham and the Wayne name to rot.

Bruce Banner - not much of a betrayer, Bruce. I'm going to go with himself, for taking off at the end of AoU and denying himself even a chance at happiness with Nat.

Aubrey - is a man of honour, sir! I suppose he did once let a woman come between him and Stephen, to the point of a duel, but on the whole he's a pretty stand-up guy. Trying to take Diana when he knew Stephen was into it was pretty mean though.

Moriarty - I have a feeling it's yet to come. Come on S4, do not disappoint me. \o/

X is going to be so grumpy, Bruce. SO GRUMPY.

Bruce: *slinks deeper in shadows. Shadows of SHAME.*

(Sorry, X.)

Bruce's are all about dramatic gestures aren't they?

I think it's a trait shared by most of my pups to one degree or other. But those two really know how to sabotage themselves. :\

I should've been much clearer. I meant Bruce Wayne's always need to make dramatic gestures and had sort of meant it as Selina saying . ; p

HA. Elbow-deep into the angst indeed!

I don't think Enjolras has any significant personal betrayals, by which I mean of friends or even acquaintances rather than a fellow member of humanity, his brother in citizenship, etc. It's easy to argue that every person he's killed (which is... a fair number) is tied for worst betrayal as a fellow member of humanity. The time when he executed Le Cabuc without a trial is his worst betrayal of his ideals.

Cosette... is also not a betraying sort. I guess how she lied to Valjean about totally not being interested in anyone specific, definitely not the guy she was secretly meeting in her garden? But that's pretty darn minor, as well as a consequence of how she was raised in some ways, and I refuse to condemn her for it. It only wins because Cosette's life is so full of sweetness, light, and very little opportunity for betrayal. She might also say that it was accepting Valjean's pulling away from her and getting caught up in her happiness instead of pushing back more, but I refuse to allow her that one; all that is on Marius and Valjean, and honestly she more than half-agrees, whether or not she'd admit it aloud.

Thor, ha, well. Hi there, Loki! Granted, Loki betrayed him a lot more thoroughly, but Thor would say he takes a good part of the blame for not seeing what was going wrong back when it was less entrenched. He's not really wrong, I think, though Loki and Odin together didn't make it easy for him.

Kazul, huh. I'll have to think about this one! There's nothing in canon, which means it's sometime in headcanon backstory, probably when she was younger and dumber.

Ahaha. Ha. Egh.

Yes.

There was that time Yamato and Gabumon challenged Yamato's best friend (and his partner) to a duel and refused to take no as an answer, as the midway note of Yamato's ongoing breakdown in the final quarter of the series. It comes at a point where a lot of the group are having similar problems, but Yamato's isn't only the worst (and the longest lasting), it also splits the group apart, with Yamato going off on his own and two of the others deciding to go off together.

As context, at this point Yamato has just had it hammered in that when they next go home, he'll probably never see his brother again (and he's recently seen his mother again for the first time in three years); they've gotten back to the Digital World only to find it completely conquered; a veritable parade of friends have died (about five or six in a couple-of-days period); Yamato's just found out what his crest represents and how it ties into all his insecurities; he's deeply, bitterly jealous of Taichi's relationship with both his own sister and Yamato's brother; and he's coping with the fact that nobody in the group is powerful enough to deal with the arc villains.

Into this comes Jureimon, a master manipulator who basically goes 'Oh, by the way, your reliance on Taichi is why you'll never improve as a person. Also your little brother loves him more than you. Psych. Now go, child, make impulsive decisions like only a PTSD-riddled eleven year old can.' The fight's broken up before it can get very far, but by then the damage is done, and the group remains split apart for almost the entire rest of the series.

That was six years ago for him, and it's probably fair to say he hasn't really gotten over it, even if everybody else has.

Edited 2016-04-21 13:24 (UTC)

Gringoire- even he's aware that leaving his Technically Wife with his increasingly weird mentor was...probably Not Great. He's not aware of exactly how it went from Not Great to "now seriously everyone's dead", and he hasn't put a lot of thought into it, because in his experience Things Happen. But he knows it was a low point.

Joly- it's horrible to admit, but for years he was courting a woman his best friend loved too. Really blatantly, even. Just shameful. (More seriously, he knows keeping almost his entire political and personal life in Paris a secret from his family was not a perfect call; but it's still the only one he can see for the circumstances. It still bothers him, though.)

Bahorel- when he was a young, foolish man, his first few years in Paris, sometimes he...he.. went to class. He has tried to atone in his later years, to save other men from his fate, but alas, there is only so much he can do. Terrible blot on his soul, haunts him daily, etc.

Edited 2016-04-21 13:40 (UTC)

Bahorel. NO. *clutches pearls*

He was young! He didn't need the money! He thought it might be useful. Oh, will the stain on his soul never fade!

OH MY GOD DID BOSSUET KNOW ABOUT THIS

How could Joly ever tell him , it would break his heart! Clearly suffering in silence is the only way to go here. That helps all relationships always and always makes everyone much happier.

*cough cough significant cough at Valjean*

Valjean: hey! I'm happy! Now. It all worked out!

*sees nothing wrong with this*

Will - He tricked a serial killer into thinking he was also serial killing so he could catch him! >:(

(Fine, this is my OOC sarcasm fueled in part by my resentment at having to stew in much more complicated IC thoughts. Have complicated feelings on your own time, Will. Also while getting someone to try to kill Hannibal was I think … morally? worse, I'd say it wasn't so much a betrayal because I'm pretty sure in Hannibal's mind the former is the kind of thing you try to forget about by running off to Europe and having rebound… sex??? sexual tension??? strong wanting to eat you overtures??????? with your therapist and cutting skulls open, and the latter is more like a funny anecdote.)

Asami - ummmmmm I guess in season 2 she kissed Mako when he was… not dating Korra anymore. And I pretend like much of season 2 didn't happen, so. LOOK, I'M SORRY, ASAMI'S A NICE PERSON. In my unwritten AU she actively chooses to help a war profiteer to try to maintain control of her company? Does that work?

Elle - … honestly she's just really not sneaky enough for betrayal. I guess in my AU she and Sylar tricked… Arthur Petrelli ha ha I remembered his name shut up, and then she tricked Sylar, but this was all less sneakiness and more… inevitability that everyone was expecting. I don't know.

Katara - … ????? Katara can do bad things but her loyalty is probably one of her strongest aspects. Even the bad things she does are usually with the welfare of her friends in mind. The one time it appeared like she might have betrayed someone it ended up being a plan they were both involved in, so. I don't know, am I forgetting anything?

X killed her sensei and her mom and tried to kill her cousin and aunt, but that was mostly because of the trigger scent? But they were probably surprised as hell by it, and she feels it like a betrayal, so that probably counts.

Ysalwen . . . . betrayed Irving by helping Jowan steal his phylactery, and then feels like she betrayed Jowan by leaving him to Arl Eamon to deal with, but. So it goes? I -- there might be something coming, we'll see.

Raven betrayed Coyote by forgetting about her utterly for a while in there. So. Yeah.

Michael betrayed God, I suppose, by arranging things to let Lucifer come back. And also sneakily offering humans her aid behind God's back. For centuries.

I don't think Karkat ever consciously betrays his friends in canon; he does some genuinely stupid things that cause incalculable harm and that he can't forgive himself for, but they were all things he thought were smart and justified at the time, mid-tantrum. He takes keeping confidences and deals pretty seriously.

In millicanon backstory, he killed (well, triggered the death of) a neighbor friend once for finding about his blood color.

In a few years her time, Ahsoka will betray the Republic, the Jedi Order, and Anakin...from a certain point of view. She doesn't see it that way, but loyalists might. Even more years down the line, she will feel she betrayed Anakin in leaving the Order and will carry guilt for that, especially once certain bits of information are confirmed. (I do not think she betrayed anyone and simply took care of herself.)

Sabine betrayed fellow academy students and then the Empire. She feel good about betraying the Empire but horrible about the students.

Sam doesn't betray anyone. I suppose a weak argument could be made for betraying the US government by attacking SHIELD, but given SHIELD was being taken over by HYDRA at the time, I don't think it'd stand up.

Eliot hasn't betrayed anyone...I think? An argument could be made for what he did to a childhood/teen bully, but I doubt that'd be a true betrayal. He doesn't let anyone get close enough to him for him to betray them.

Selina with lie to Bruce soon and it will feel like a betrayal to him. I think it's more she's trying to protect him because he's kind of obsessed and doesn't have the best self preservation instincts. And there's a bit of protecting herself as well. The betrayal is her telling him she lied about seeing who killed his parents. She'll tell him she made it up to get out of Social Services.

Izana might be accused of betraying Sidonia by convincing garde pilots to go and rescue Nagate. Starting what could be considered a mutiny does count right?

Hank did betray Raven by attacking her verbally when she rejected the mutant suppression serum. That's about it, though I am thinking of having Hank leave Xavier and the school for a bit to join up with Erik and learn about his side. If I do this, and given how closely JFK's assassination occurred after the Cuban Missile Crisis, there's a good chance Hank was there with Erik, which is interesting to think of. Did Hank see Erik trying to save JFK or did he think Erik did it?

And finally Rollo...my one canon betrayer! He betrays his brother Ragnar to try and claim for status with Jarl borg. This goes badly when Rollo finds he can't raise a weapon against his brother. Fast forward a few years, and Rollo is at it again, this time with the Franks who have given him a title, men to fight with, and lands to rule. Rollo is in a much better position this time and tonight we see if he can raise his hand against his brother. Promos suggest he can.

re: Izana, it's only a betrayal if the authority you're rebelling against is Just! There are many people in Milliways who will happily explain this point at 19th Century-level length, if needed. :P

Edited 2016-04-21 15:15 (UTC)

Funny enough, when the 256 pilots who signed up for the mission were returning to Sidonia with the missing pilots, the XO asked the captain what she was going to do and the captain replied that they didn't have 256 cells for the mutineers. So everyone got off scot-free. I think they even turned it into a publicity stunt by pretending it was a sanctioned mission the whole time.

I should note this is head canon. In canon the mission just happens, with no one pointed out as the instigator. I decided it was a perfect time to show Izana being proactive.

The worst you say ....

Eric's life is one, long, string of betrayals really. And the worst is yet to come.
Right now, he'd say letting Godric down. And that encompasses all instances where his Maker was not proud of him.
So - yeah.

As for Elrond. Hmm.
He has had to make countless decisions where he favored the common good instead of the individual.
Sending hobbits off to Mordor comes to mind.
Whether it count as betrayel - I'm not sure. Although premonition does change the game a little.

The argument could be made that Furiosa betrayed Immortan Joe by helping the wives escape, but the better argument could be made that Immortan Joe deserved everything he got.

Steve feels he betrayed Bucky by not preventing his fall from the train, no matter how often he's told it wasn't his fault.

Sherlock and Irene Adler. Ugh, there's a can of worms. Refusing to give her back her protection is a pretty big betrayal, but on the other hand she was trying to blackmail the government.

...It's occurred to me that Sherlock is a lot more lawful good than he might initially appear.

Jim: pffffft, it's not like she didn't betray you. With help, of course. You can do better, my dear.

Sherlock: Yes, John is very trustworthy.

Jim: *eyeroll to hell and back* Such a pity he can't say the same about you. Must be why he chooses the woman. Poor Sherlock. :(

Sherlock: John shows an appalling lack of imagination when it comes to his sexuality. That's why he chooses the woman.

Jim: it's not the only arena he lacks imagination in. But you don't, is what you're saying. Interesting.

Sherlock: Surely it's no mystery to you. Not after being "Jim from I.T." for my edification.

Jim: little about you is a mystery to me, Sherlock. But as I'm sure you'll learn, the game isn't just about your edification. Or gratification, for that matter.

Sherlock: So you say.

It all comes back to the game, does it?

Jim: you'll find out for yourself soon enough.

And you know there's nothing else, not for us. But there's no need to make it sound so cold, darling. If it's intimacy you want, I won't disappoint.

Sherlock: Intimacy. What a peculiar offer.

Jim: *smirk* Doesn't surprise me that the word's not to your liking. Personal then, how's that? Better? I will definitely make it personal.

Sherlock: I didn't say I don't like it. I'm merely surprised to hear it from you.

Jim: there's a lot about me that'll surprise you, Sherlock. And don't try and tell me you don't love that.

Sherlock: "Love" is a strong word. Let's stick with "intrigued."

Jim: *grin* Give it time, sexy.

*whistles Can't take my eyes off you...*

And that looks like a good place to stop. They'll have to have a conversation like this in-bar sometime.

*smooch*

They absolutely have to. :D

*flings love*

Tess has killed/tried to kill a few people who trusted her.

Kylo kind of went to the Dark Side. Some might call that a betrayal.

I doubt anyone questions whether Kylo's turn was a betrayal. Some might have different opinions about if it was the Correct Course of Action.

Clint probably feels worst about a betrayal when he was a teenager. His boyfriend of several years thought him to be a good guy, but Clint like totally vigilante killed a few people who hurt Ramon (who was a bystander) during a drive-by shooting. Clint thought this was the appropriate reaction! YOU CAN'T JUST ACCCIDENTLY HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE AND GET AWAY WITH IT. (... he still kind of thinks it was the appropriate reaction, because his highest moral standard is avoiding messiness (right behind it is avoiding causing unnecessary pain), but he still feels terrible that he proved himself to not be the good guy Ramon thought he was.)

Chuck's got nothing that's a real betrayal. Like, he doesn't know how to betray people, because his brain doesn't even think of it as a possibility. He feels really guilty for some stuff, like he SHOULD have been able to x, y, z. He probably feels worst about the fact that he wasn't able to save his class pets during the atomic blast at his grade school. He should feel worst about his classmates, he knows, but that is way too big for him to cope with so he just feels terrible about the hamsters.

SEBASTIAN LIVED WHILE HIS SISTER DIIIED. I mean, less over-dramatically, he likely absolutely ruined some friend's prospects at marrying a really pretty lady because he decided to instead introduce her to another of their friends who TOTALLY NEEDED ALL THE HELP HE COULD GET, BRO.

Darcy feels really shitty about finding a reason to not go on a vacation to see her grandma before she died, even though her mom asked her to a bunch. Darcy just... didn't want to? She really didn't want to. But, y'know, then she died, and Darcy had decided to study for midterms instead of see her grandma and -- it's just upsetting.

hmm. the rest of these just get progressively more depressing, except for Legolas who has never betrayed a soul. He's pulled a ton of pranks, andmaybeoccasionallypilferedthewinecellars, but not actually betrayed anyone.

Thursday DE: twist the knife a little, why don't you

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